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The Trinity & the Incarnation - Faith Hope Charity - 02-11-2007






<b>The Trinity</b>
Now the Catholic faith is this,


that we worship One God in the Trinity and the Trinity in Unity,


neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance.


The Person of the Father is distinct, the Person of the Son is distinct, the Person of the Holy Ghost is distinct;


but of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost


the Divinity is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.


As the Father is, such is the Son, such is the Holy Ghost:


Uncreated is the Father, Uncreated is the Son, Uncreated is the Holy Ghost;


Infinite is the Father, Infinite is the Son, Infinite is the Holy Ghost;


Eternal is the Father, Eternal is the Son, Eternal is the Holy Ghost;


Any yet not three eternals, but One Eternal.


As there are not three uncreated, not three infinites, but One Uncreated and One Infinite.


Likewise, Almighty is the Father, Almighty is the Son, Almighty is the Holy Ghost;


And yet not three almighties, but One Almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God;


And yet there are not three gods; there is but One God.


So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Ghost is Lord;


And yet there are not three lords; there is but One Lord.


For we are compelled by Christian truth to confess that each Person is God and Lord;


so are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three gods or lords.


The Father is made by none; not created, nor begotten.


The Son is from the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten.


The Holy Ghost is from the Father and the Son; not made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.


Therefore, there is One Father, not three fathers;


there is One Son, not three sons;


there is One Holy Ghost, not three holy ghosts.


And in this Trinity there is none before or after, none greater or less;


but all Three Persons are co-eternal and co-equal.


So that, in all respects, as is aforesaid,


we must worship both the Unity of the Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.


<i>(DS 75: Solemn Teaching of the Church - 5th Century AD)</i>




The Trinity & the Incarnation - Faith Hope Charity - 02-11-2007






<b>The Incarnation</b>
Following the holy Church Fathers, therefore,


we all with one accord teach the profession of faith


in one and the same Son, Jesus Christ our Lord,


perfect both in His divinity and in His humanity,


truly God and truly man composed of body and rational soul;


consubstantial with the Father in His divinity,


consubstantial with us in His humanity,


like us in every respect except for sin;


in His divinity begotten of the Father before all ages,


in His humanity born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God,


in the last days for us and for our salvation.


We declare that the one selfsame Christ, only begotten Son and Lord,


must be acknowledged in two natures


without commingling or change or division or separation;


that the distinction between the natures


is in no way removed by their union


but rather that the specific character of each nature is preserved


and they are united in one person and one hypostasis.


We declare that He is not split or divided into two persons,


but that there is one selfsame only begotten Son, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ.


This the prophets have taught about Him from the beginning;


this Jesus Christ Himself taught us;


this the creed of the Church Fathers has handed down to us.


As these truths, therefore, have been formulated with all possible accuracy and care,


the holy, ecumenical council has ordained that no one may bring forward or put into writing or devise or entertain or teach others another Catholic faith.


<i>(Council of Chalcedon - 451)</i>




The Trinity & the Incarnation - Faith Hope Charity - 02-11-2007






<b>The Blessed Trinity</b>
The three things are existence, knowledge & will. For I can say that I am, I know & I will. I am a being which knows & wills. I know both that I am & that I will. I will both to be & to know. In these three - being, knowledge & will - there is one inseparable life. One life. One mind. One essence. Therefore, although they are distinct from one another, the distinction does not separate them. This must be plain to anyone who has the ability to understand it. In fact, he need not look beyond himself. Let him examine himself closely, take stock, & tell me what he finds. For none of us can easily conceive whether God is a Trinity because all these three -immutable being, immutable knowledge & immutable will - are together in him. Whether all three are together in each person of the Trinity, so that each is threefold or whether both these suppositions are true & in some wonderful way in which the simple & the multiple are one, though God is Infinite He is yet an end to Himself & in Himself, so that the Trinity is in Itself, & is known to Itself, & suffices to Itself, the Supreme Being, One alone immutably, in the vastness of its Unity. This is a mystery that none can explain, & which of us would presume to assert that he can?


(St Augustine 354-430 AD)


Here the mystery deepens. Three Distinct Persons & only One God. How is this possible? Reason understands that there is no contradiction, because it is a Trinity of Persons & a Unity of Divine Nature. But the difficulty remains. Each of the Persons is the same God. How can They be really distinct? The reply which our reason stammers is based on the concept of relation. The Three Divine Persons are distinguished among Themselves solely by the relations which They have with One Another. Precisely by the relation of the Father to the Son; of the Son to the Father; of the Father & the Son to the Spirit; & of the Spirit to the Father & the Son. The Council of Florence in 1442 could therefore state, "These Three Persons are One God, because the Three are One Substance, One Essence, One Nature, One Divinity, One Immensity, One Eternity... in God everything is one & the same, where there is no opposition of relation".


(Pope John Paul II 1985)


Christians acknowledge one God - Unbegotten, Eternal, Invisible, incapable of being acted upon, Incomprehensible, Unbounded - who is known only by understanding & reason. By whom all things through His Word have been produced & said in order & are kept in existence. We recognize also the Son of God. Let no one think it laughable that God should have a Son, for we do not conceive of either God the Father or God the Son as the pagans do, who in their myth-making represent the gods as no better than men. The Son of God is the Word of the Father, in thought & in actuality. By Him & through Him all things were made, the Father & the Son being One. Since the Son is in the Father & the Father is in the Son by the Unity & Power of the Spirit, the Mind & Word of the Father is the Son of God. If in your exceedingly great wisdom it occurs to you to enquire what is meant by the Son, I will tell you briefly. He is the first begotten of the Father, not as having being produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in Himself, God being eternal Mind & eternally Rational. Who then would not be astonished to hear men speak of God the Father & of God the Son & of the Holy Spirit.


(St Justin Martyr 150AD)


God - Father Son Holy Spirit - have one nature or substance; one power & authority. There is a consubstantial Trinity; one deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons.


(2nd Council of Constantinople 553AD)




The Trinity & the Incarnation - Faith Hope Charity - 02-11-2007

<b>The Incarnation</b>



THE CONSTITUTION OF CHRIST



<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%;">One Divne Person

(WHO)


The Son of God possessing:

Two Natures

(WHAT)


joined in the Person



DIVINE NATURE

- GOD -


Divine attributes:

divine power,

holiness, majesty etc.

<i>Divine Intellect


Divine Will</i>



HUMAN NATURE

- MAN -


Complete, i.e.,

Body and Soul

<i>Human Intellect


Human Will</i>


Not Fused


Not Changed


Union but not Confusion


Each Distinct and Perfect


Not Divided</span>

The Trinity & the Incarnation - Faith Hope Charity - 02-12-2007


<b>Jesus Christ
Son of God
Son of Man
Messiah
</b>

(According to the Gospels)


<i>Christ claimed to be God, because He made claims that God alone can make.</i>


<b>He claimed to be God, the Judge of al mankind.</b> "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him ... before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate them one from another" (St Matthew 25:31-46). It is only God who can speak of Himself thus. It is only God who can read the hearts of the countless of millions of mankind, and apportion to each individual his deserts. In the continuation of the same passage, he says that He will tell the good on the day of judgement that in befriending the needy they were befriending Him, and He will tell the wicked that in neglecting the needy they were neglecting Him. He identifies Himself, therefore, with God, whom good men please and wicked men displease.

<b>He claimed to be God the Lawgiver.</b> The Pharisees accused the disciples of Jesus of having violated the Sabbath. Jesus replied that the "Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" (St Matthew 12:18). This is to say, the Sabbath observance may be set aside by Him, viz., God, who instituted it. He said, in the Sermon on the Mount: "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall be liable to judgement" (St Matthew 5:21-22; cf. vv. 28, 32, 34, 39, 44). And, throughout the discourse, He returns repeatedly to the same emphatic declaration: "You have heard ... <i>But I say to you</i>". Had He claimed to be no more than a mere human envoy of God, He would never have spoken thus: to do so would have been the vilest blasphemy and arrogance. He would instead have adhered with the strictest reverence and humility to the formula: "But God now bids me to say to you." The words He actually spoke show Him as claiming to enlarge and re-interpret the Ten Commandments on His own personal authority. But such authority can be possessed by God alone, the giver of the Law on Sinai.

<b>He claimed to be Omnipotent. He claimed to be a Divine Person, God the Son, equal in power to the Father.</b> "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me" (St Matthew 28:18). "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him" (St Luke 10:22). He claimed to possess a power which only God could possess, power over the angels and all creatures, whether in heaven or on earth. But while making this claim, He stated clearly that He was not the only Person in God. He spoke of Himself as the Son who had received all things from the Father to whom He was mysteriously united in mutual knowledge, and whom He alone at His pleasure could make known to men.

<b>He claimed to be God the Son, one in nature with the Father.</b> When Jesus stood before the Sanhedrin on Good Friday morning, "the High Priest asked Him, 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?' And Jesus said, 'I am; and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.' And the High Priest tore his mantle, and said, 'Why do we still need witnesses? You have heard his blasphemy" (St Mark 14:61-64; cf St Matthew 26:63-66). What was the blasphemy? It was the claim of Jesus to be the true Son of God, one in nature with the Father. It was for that blasphemy they condemned Him.

<b>He claimed divine prerogatives.</b> The Jews said to Him: "'You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am'" (St John 8:57-58). "The Father ... has given all judgement to the Son, that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father" (St John 5:22-23). Before He suffered, He prayed to His Father: "Father, Glorify Thou Me in Thy own presence, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was made. ... All Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine" (St John 17:5, 10, 19).

<b>The Jews knew He claimed to be God.</b> Jesus said to the Jews: "I and the Father are one." They were about to stone Him for these words "because", they said, "You, being a man, make Yourself God" (St John 10:30-33). Jesus, replying to the Jews who were offended because He had cured a sick man on the Sabbath day, said, "My Father is working still, and I am working." Whereupon they "sought all the more to kill Him, because He ... called God His Father, making Himself equal with God." Jesus, far from saying that they had misunderstood Him, answered: "... for whatever [the Father] does, that the Son does likewise ... For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He will" (St John 10:38).

<b>The acts of Jesus testify that He claimed to be God.</b> Jesus performed His many miracles, not merely as the ambassador of God, but as God Himself: "even though you do not believe Me, believe the works", i.e., the miracles, "that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father" (St John 10:38). He allowed men to adore Him as God (St John 9:35-38; cf. St Matthew 14:33; 15:25; 17:14). He forgave sin as of His own independent power. "My son, your sins are forgiven", He said to the man sick of the palsy. When the Scribes ask themselves indignantly, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?", He does not deny the assertion implied in their question, viz., "it is only God who can forgive sin", but goes on to reaffirm the claim He has already made. "'But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins'---He said to the paralytic---'I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.' And he rose, and immediately took up the pallet and went out before them all: (St Mark 2:5-12). To Mary Magdalen, who had kissed His feet and bathed them with her tears, He said, "Your sins are forgiven." And to those who sat at table with Him on the same occasion, He said, "her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much" (St Luke 7:47-8).

<b>The Apostles and Disciples knew that Christ claimed to be God.</b> No one denies that, after the death of Christ, His followers, both Jews and Gentiles, preached His Divinity, and that they suffered and died in testimony thereof (Acts 3:14-15; 5:41; 7:55-58; 15:26), facts which can be explained only by their knowledge that He Himself had claimed to be the Son of God.


<i>(Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine - Archbishop Michael Sheehan & Father Peter Joseph)</i>


The Trinity & the Incarnation - radiyah - 02-13-2007


Bismillah


FHC this is an Islamic board, where we do not beleive in trinity, u r free to explain your point of view, but we do not consider trinity as blessed, I hope u will consider this when posting, and remember that you are on an islamic board. Thankyou


Peace



The Trinity & the Incarnation - Faith Hope Charity - 02-13-2007


In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.


Salam Radiyah,


You're totally right but I couldn't help it! I get asked about the Blessed Trinity & Incarnation left, right & centre, so I thought it would be wise to create a new thread dedicated to my beliefs & avoid hijacking other topics.


Blame Wael... not me :P Hahaha!


I knew it was risky. I won't get offended if you delete this thread :)


God bless.



The Trinity & the Incarnation - wel_mel_2 - 02-14-2007


Bismillah:


I would like to repeat what sister Radiyah said; we do not consider the Trinity to be blessed; this is truly an example of how human being used to invent titles and attribute it to God...


I am not going to disappoint you this time FHC, dont worry, no more comments from my side.


Salam


Wael.



The Trinity & the Incarnation - JONATHAN_SAAD - 03-08-2007


Quote:In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.


Salam Radiyah,


You're totally right but I couldn't help it! I get asked about the Blessed Trinity & Incarnation left, right & centre, so I thought it would be wise to create a new thread dedicated to my beliefs & avoid hijacking other topics.


Blame Wael... not me :P Hahaha!


I knew it was risky. I won't get offended if you delete this thread :)


God bless.

IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRT-MAY GOD BLESS


why do you not consider the trinity i combinds god and jesus and the beloved vergin mary as one? :glare:



The Trinity & the Incarnation - Curious Christian - 03-08-2007

This is an Islam board...yet time and time again some attack the Catholic faith out of the blue. FHC was simply giving a detailed picture of what we believe.