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Who did Jesus cry out to? - AlShamms - 10-30-2009
In the "who made the decision" thread, the point was raised about what Jesus said while on the cross. I wanted to take a closer look at this subject.
Some Muslims will say Yeshua (Jesus) called out to Elah (Allah) when he was about to experience death, and my answer to them is you are correct he did call out to "the God", but let’s explore the meaning of Elah to get the full interpretation.
In the context of [Mark15: 34] Yeshua (Jesus) uttered, ““E-lo’-i, E-lo’-i, la’ma sa-bach’-tha-ni. In that verse, [E-lo-i] is (Elói) a Greek transliteration from the Aramaic Elah (Noun: Vocative Singular Masculine).
[Mark15: 34] Original Greek text
καὶ τῇ ἐνάτῃ ὥρᾳ ἐβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ· (ἐλωι) ἐλωι λαμα σαβαχθανι; ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενο ν· ὁ θεός μου ὁ θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπες με;
Elói (1682) transliterated from Aramaic Elah (424), which is a variant of Allah (427), and also correspond to Hebrew Elahh (426), which is in direct relations to the Hebrew feminine Eloah (433), thus given way to the plural form elohiym (430 Elohim), and short form El (410). Pinpointing all of the various forms of Elah is important because it allows the reader to draw a conclusive conclusion to the exact meaning, by getting to the root, which is the foundation of any word. With that said, Ayil (252) is the root word, which means a Chief, mighty man, or anything strong. Let me add, elohiym (430 Elohim) is a sole root word, but it is plural to Eloah (433) from El (410), and thus Ayil is the foundation.
We can definitely draw the conclusion (E-lo-i) is accurately interpreted God in [Mark15: 34], which is a word that represent Chief, strength, or mighty, but (God) is only a title. That is why it is written, [1 Corinthians 8:5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in HEAVEN or in EARTH, (as there be gods many, and lords many).
Now, to find out the Proper name of the Chief God that Yeshua (Jesus) said had forsaken him [Mark15: 34] we must cross-reference to the original fragment that correlates to [Mark15: 34a], which links to [Psalms 22:1], the same God David called upon in [Psalms 22:1], “MY God, MY God, why hast thou forsaken me…which is YHWH.
[Psalms 22:1] 1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Behind every name is a (root word), which depicts the Authority, Power, Character, Mission, etc, of a person, especially in biblical times. With that said, the root of (י ה ו ה) YHWH is Hayah, which mean, “To exist” evolving to future tense, “To be;” the root of the Father’s name is letting all know, that he self-exist and is continuously evolving, even into the present state “To be”, that is why he uttered, “…BEFORE me there was no God formed, neither shall there be AFTER me (Isaiah 43:10).
YHWH also uttered to Mōsheh (Moses), and instructed him to tell the children of Israel, his name is YHWH FOREVER... [Exodus 3:15]
15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: THIS IS MY NAME FOR EVER, and this is MY MEMORIAL UNTO ALL GENERATIONS.
(Disclaimer: Everytime you see the LORD or GOD in all caps the name YHWH was replaced with those titles.)
Now, lets move on to another very important name, which further explains the Father’s name, י ה ו ש ו ע [yod-he-waw-shin-waw-`ayin] Yehoshua, notice how YHWH is consistent in the name, but look carefully at Yehoshua (Jesus), it is slightly different; why you ask? Because it has attached to it an addition clause, which is yod-shin-‘ayin (י ש ע) from the (root word) YASHA (3467) meaning TO SAVE [Matthew 1:21].
Who did Jesus cry out to? - Muslimah - 11-03-2009
Bismillah
as salam alykom Shamms
Thank you very much for your thorough explanation which even clarifies the point I wanted to make.
I will not elaborate but any reader would get it.
Who did Jesus cry out to? - AlShamms - 11-03-2009
Quote:Bismillah
as salam alykom Shamms
Thank you very much for your thorough explanation which even clarifies the point I wanted to make.
I will not elaborate but any reader would get it.
Muslimah, see my response in the "who made the decision" thread.
Who did Jesus cry out to? - wel_mel_2 - 11-04-2009
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum
Allow me please to add some information to your post:
The word <b>ELOI</b> means <b>MY GOD</b> and not simply '<i>God</i>' . If you read Mark 15:34 (the reference you gave) it says:
"and on the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: E-LO-I, E-LO-I, La' MA SA BACH THA NI? Which is, <b>being interpreted, MY GOD, MY GOD</b> why hast thou forsaken me?"
So according to the Bible, Jesus cried aloud to<b> HIS GOD</b> since he was plainly saying <b>MY GOD</b>, and therefore, he himself could never be God.
Now allow me to divert the subject a little bit and pose another question instead of '<i>who Jesus cry out to</i>?' to '<i>what did he actually say on the Cross</i>?'
according to Mark he was depressed and yet quite all the way to the cross until they put him to death where his last words were '<i>My God My God why has thou forsaken me</i>?'
but in Luke the whole story is different, he was not quite on his way to the cross, instead he prays: '<b>Father, forgive them for they don't know what they are doing</b>' Luke 23:34. in Luke it seems that he has a close contact with God, he was not concerned about himself, but rather about those who are doing wrong. (<i>without going into the whole details of differenced between both accounts i.e. Mark and Luke</i>), his last words were totally different than that of Mark, he said:
“<b>Father, into your hands I commend my spirit</b>” 23:46 after that he give up the ghost i.e. died. these were his last words and not as what is mentioned in Mark.
My concern is NOT about 'to whom did he pray to' but rather, what did actually happened to him in the last few hours of his life and what did he say on the cross. Well, that depends entirely on <b>which gospel do you read</b>, and so it seems to me that Bible authors' view points were at odds with each other regarding what exactly happened to him.
Salam
Wael.
Who did Jesus cry out to? - AlShamms - 11-05-2009
The purpose of this thread was not to say Jesus Christ is Jehovah the Father, he is not. The Bible is clear on that point. Nor was the purpose to prove the diety of Christ. We have already established that there is one above Jesus (God the Father) the purpose of this thread was to identify what God it was that Jesus recognized as his "Father". The Qur'an teaches that al'ilah did not have a son (23:91). Jesus then could not have been referring to "al'ilah" as his father. That is the point of this thread.
Who did Jesus cry out to? - wel_mel_2 - 11-07-2009
Quote:The purpose of this thread was not to say Jesus Christ is Jehovah the Father, he is not. The Bible is clear on that point. Nor was the purpose to prove the diety of Christ. We have already established that there is one above Jesus (God the Father) the purpose of this thread was to identify what God it was that Jesus recognized as his "Father". The Qur'an teaches that al'ilah did not have a son (23:91). Jesus then could not have been referring to "al'ilah" as his father. That is the point of this thread.
You have made more than one point in your post and not just one point which you have explained now in few lines.
Anyways, let me answer your quesion in a very simple manner.
If in the language of the Jews, the word SON and SERVANT mean the same thing (<b>as you have said on the other thread that this term</b> <i>can be translated both son and servant. While "son" is the more common rendering, servant is correct also</i>. ) then naturally the word FATHER and MASTER, or Owner would also mean the same. so when Jesus called out His God as Father, he was actually calling His Creator and His Master, and not His Father in the literal sense.
You see, that is the genius of the Hebrew language, they understood that Father would only refer to God the Creator and Master of this whole world, and that's why, they themselves were called the '<b>children of God'</b> which means, righteous servants of God and not literally begotten by God Almighty.
However, this term “Father”' was expunged from the Islamic terminology because of its connotation in the Arabic language (as well as in many other languages).When you say "<i>God is the Father</i>", immediately you are degrading the Creator to the position of His Creation, and thus another word was introduced instead of ABB (i.e. Father) to avoid any confusion and to place God in His higher and proper position, and that is the word <b>RABB</b>, which means Lord, Cherisher, Sustainer of the universe.
So we have no objection if Jesus PBUH refered to His God as Father in order for the Jews to understand that he was actually calling His RABB, but since these matters are already cleared up, then everyone now should call God with this proper term.
I hope this answer your question.
Salam
Wae..
Who did Jesus cry out to? - AlShamms - 11-07-2009
I'm sorry Wael, but the leap in logic you are attempting to make is a faulty one. While the greek term
G3816
παῖς
pais
Can be translated either son or servant, the Greek word for Father
G3962
πατήρ
patēr
is never translated as master or owner. Pater means
A primary word; a “father” (literally or figuratively, near or more remote): - father, parent.
Jesus joined the word "Pater" with "Abba" meaning:
1) father, customary title used of God in prayer. Whenever it occurs in the New Testament it has the Greek interpretation joined to it, that is apparently to be explained by the fact that the Chaldee “ABBA” through frequent use in prayer, gradually acquired the nature of a most sacred proper name, to which the Greek speaking Jews added the name from their own tongue.
Abba has its origin in the Aramaic word Ab.
The Greek word for master is "didaskalos" and is never used in relation to Jehovah...only to Jesus.
It is clear that from the definition of the term "Father" Jesus did indeed mean his literal father, as one only begotten of the Father could.
Quote:However, this term “Father”' was expunged from the Islamic terminology because of its connotation in the Arabic language (as well as in many other languages).When you say "<i>God is the Father</i>", immediately you are degrading the Creator to the position of His Creation, and thus another word was introduced instead of ABB (i.e. Father) to avoid any confusion and to place God in His higher and proper position, and that is the word <b>RABB</b>, which means Lord, Cherisher, Sustainer of the universe.
It is for this very reason that Jesus chose the terms he did to refer to Jehovah. To bring us into a personal relationship with Him, so that His disciples no longer dread Jehovah as a stern judge of sinners, but revere Him as their reconciled and loving Father.
Who did Jesus cry out to? - AlShamms - 11-07-2009
took too long in editing...the modified post is as follows:
I'm sorry Wael, but the leap in logic you are attempting to make is a faulty one. While the greek term
G3816
παῖς
pais
Can be translated either son or servant, the Greek word for Father
G3962
πατήρ
patēr
is never translated as master or owner. Pater means
A primary word; a “father” (literally or figuratively, near or more remote): - father, parent.
Jesus joined the word "Pater" with "Abba" meaning:
1) father, customary title used of God in prayer. Whenever it occurs in the New Testament it has the Greek interpretation joined to it, that is apparently to be explained by the fact that the Chaldee “ABBA” through frequent use in prayer, gradually acquired the nature of a most sacred proper name, to which the Greek speaking Jews added the name from their own tongue.
Abba has its origin in the Aramaic word Ab.
The Greek word for master is "didaskalos" and is never used in relation to Jehovah...only to Jesus.
Quote:However, this term “Father”' was expunged from the Islamic terminology because of its connotation in the Arabic language (as well as in many other languages).When you say "<i>God is the Father</i>", immediately you are degrading the Creator to the position of His Creation, and thus another word was introduced instead of ABB (i.e. Father) to avoid any confusion and to place God in His higher and proper position, and that is the word <b>RABB</b>, which means Lord, Cherisher, Sustainer of the universe.
It is clear that from the definition of the term "Father" Jesus did indeed mean his literal father, as one only begotten of the Father could. And his message is to follow him, so we too can become adopted into the family and share in Jehovah's loving grace:
John 15:15
No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master does. But I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
We can see here that Jesus knew a term for master, the greek term "kurios" and could have used this term exclusively in reference to Jehovah...he did not.
It is for this very reason that Jesus chose the terms he did to refer to Jehovah. To bring us into a personal relationship with Him, so that His disciples no longer dread Jehovah as a stern judge of sinners, but revere Him as their reconciled and loving Father.
Who did Jesus cry out to? - wel_mel_2 - 11-07-2009
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:I'm sorry Wael, but the leap in logic you are attempting to make is a faulty one. While the greek term
OK maybe I wasn't clear earlier...
Jesus is called the son of God, <b>does this mean that His God is His actual and literal Father?</b> Absolutely not.
Jesus is also called the son of man,<b> does this mean that Joseph the carpenter is his actual and literal Father?</b> Definitely not.
Therefore, the word Father in the language of the Jews does not really mean <i>Father</i> in the sense that you have understood, or else we may consider Joseph to be the real father of Jesus Christ.
In Luke 2:48 for example, when Jesus was 12 years old and got lost in the temple then later was found by his mother and Joseph, we are told: (according to the Good News Translation):
"<b>His parents</b> were astonished when they saw him, and his mother said to him: 'Son, why have you done this to us? <b>Your father</b> and I have been terribly worried trying to find you."
<b>YOUR FATHER?</b> referring to Joseph? same word being used by Jesus when he addresses God?
Now you might say:
<i>"When the term is referred to Joseph, <b>it does not really mean Father</b>, but when referred to God, <b>it absolutely mean Father in the literal sense</b></i>". !
Salam
Wael.
Who did Jesus cry out to? - AlShamms - 11-07-2009
Wael, you were clear, just incorrect.
Quote:"When Jesus uses the term Father, does he mean God is his actual and literal Father?"
Yes he does, just as Jehovah, when refering to Jesus as his son, means literally that:
Matthew 3:17
And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Quote:"Jesus is also called the son of man, does this mean that Joseph the carpenter is his actual and literal Father? Definitely not."
Jesus is not called the "son of man" because of Joseph being his Father...though Joseph was indeed Jesus' legal Father. The angel tells Joseph to name the child Jesus. By this action, Joseph acknowledges him as his own. The Jewish law prefers to base paternity of a child on the man’s acknowledgment: “If a man says, ‘This is my son,’ he is to be believed.” By exercising the father’s right to name the child, Joseph acknowledges Jesus and thus becomes the legal father of Jesus. Legal paternity among Semites is real paternity. Joseph is not just a “foster father” of Jesus in the sense that he adopts him as his own. He is the “legal father” inasmuch as he acknowledges Jesus as his legitimate son.
The title "son of man" is a reference of prophecy made by the prophet Daniel:
Daniel 7:13-14
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, on the clouds of the heavens came One like a Son of man, and He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him.
14 And there was given Him [the Messiah] dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom is one which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus applies this prophecy to himself in Matthew:
Matthew 24:30
30 <i>Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory</i> [in brilliancy and splendor].
And again.....
Matthew 26:64
64 <i>Jesus said to him, You have stated [the fact]. More than that, I tell you: You will in the future see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Almighty and coming on the clouds of the sky.</i>
The conclusion that this title expresses, not the personal qualities of Jesus as a man, but His functions as Messiah.