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MOTHER TERESA - of those whose deeds have been in vain
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| Posted by Faris_Mee - 04-09-2006, 06:57 AM |
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<b> <i> Do you have a clear understanding of what the christian belief in Christ is?</i></b> I will not say that one or the other is correct. Obviously it would not matter. However, understand what most christians believe to be the reason why they worship Jesus, or appear to. This question is taking us away from the original intent of the thread. I'll converse with you Mahasvapna in another section... in_sha_Allah (If Allah so wills). |
| Posted by Muslimah - 04-09-2006, 06:32 AM |
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Bismillah No Mahasvapna, we are here to make choices and those choices we pay for other wise you would be saying Allah (may Allah Forgive me) is a tyrant. Allah Does not force us to believe or disbelieve. Allah Told us many time we should believe in Allah and only Allah, Sent us Messengers and Prophet. BUt Allah's Knowledge is a different subject. Try looking here, u actually reminded me that Insh a Allah to continue filling on that thread, but till then, u will Insh a Allah find something: http://www.islamsms.com/bb//index.php?sh...c=3280&hl= |
| Posted by naseeha - 04-09-2006, 04:22 AM |
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jazaakallah khair faris.. Some ppl are intent upon quoting verses in isolation and jumping to conclusions... not in totality.... Something similar to this happened in another thread with brother anyabwile... subhanallah.... anyways maha you can see the versed that faris quoted here... http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabinde...d=27&bid=8 http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabinde...d=26&bid=8 yahdiikumullah naseeha |
| Posted by Faris_Mee - 04-09-2006, 01:53 AM |
Quote:Are there any other translations of this verse? The meaning would seem obvious, but surely it isn't. Is it the Islamic belief that essentially those born, for whatever reason, without the ability to practice Islam - for while this verse seems to mention the deaf and the dumb, it seems that the message is geared towards indicating all those who for any reason are physically, perhaps mentally, disabled in a way that prevents them from grasping and practicing the wisdom of Islam - that these people are fated to hell because of this physical flaw alone? :scratch: Say what? Here is...the most in depth translation around; <b>20. O you who believe! Obey Allâh and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) while you are hearing.</b> 21. And be not like those who say: "We have heard," but they hear not. 22. Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allâh are the deaf and the dumb, who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers). 23. Had Allâh known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen; and even if He had made them listen, they would but have turned away with aversion (to the truth). I think you haven't considered the verses enough. That's all. Especially #21. More later. |
| Posted by Mahasvapna - 04-08-2006, 11:19 PM |
Quote:What is the fruitition? To believe that God ate and went to the toilet? This is what she is calling to. Surely even you have passed this falacy? Her works are a means to an end. And that is to call people to believe that Jesus is God or part thereof. And this is calling people to the fire. She has done them no favor. Do you have a clear understanding of what the christian belief in Christ is? I will not say that one or the other is correct. Obviously it would not matter. However, understand what most christians believe to be the reason why they worship Jesus, or appear to. Jesus was supposed to be the incarnation of God - the living avatar of God, as it were. They believe that the seed that was given to Mary's womb was no less than God himself. Certainly this is within God's power. Some here have said that they do not believe that Jesus was Crucified - I was not there, so i do not know, but would God have been so vulnerable? On the other hand, the Gospel of Judas, which may or may not be valid, perhaps we shall see, suggests that the crucifixtion was arranged by Jesus himself, in collaboration with the man normally portrayed as the betrayer, Judas Iscariot. This much is a bit to speculative for now. I see a repetition of the same statement, that we should put no other beside the Lord, but do the Jewish not have many names for God? Do you yourself believe 'allah' to be the one and only title for God? If you call a rose a flower, does it not have two names? They are both valid, but they are labels for two aspects of what a Rose is. Jesus is not beside God, Jesus is the extension of God, the physical representation. After his ascent to heaven, he was rejoined with God. I realize that the Islamic view is that Jesus was but another prophet, but if from one's own point of view, one truly loves no other but god - simply recognizing the many spledors of God and adoring them both together and apart - then in the heart, one has not set anything beside the Lord in worship. I would say that it is certainly true that many christians have a literal view of the relationship between God and Jesus. While I will not cast judgement on those in terms of their hereafter, such a view is rather simple. Clearly there are many translations and many interpretations of the verses of the Qu'ran, are there not? Do you believe that your own interpretations are correct, or are there other schools of thought within Islam as a whole? Are only those who think as <b>you</b> do destined for reward in the afterlife? If one is to truly discern between the work of the Lord and the work of evil - whatever your interpretation may be of what that is - one must know the truth in the heart. Surely the judgement of God is a matter of the true heart of the faithful, rather than the traditions associated with whatever religion they claim to have. Just as in Islam, you may speak to many christians and get many different views on their relationship to Christ or God. Also, while many in the world of the living may deify other men or women, and may give them whatever glory they may - this does not mean that the individual themself does anything to purposefully attract such attention. Surely all of the prophets are held in even greater esteem, though i doubt they had the hubris you seem to attribute to those glorified by others. namaste Mahasvapna |
| Posted by Mahasvapna - 04-08-2006, 10:55 PM |
Quote:O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). Be not as those who say, We hear, and they hear not. Lo! <b>the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense. Had Allah Known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse.</b> 8.20-3 Are there any other translations of this verse? The meaning would seem obvious, but surely it isn't. Is it the Islamic belief that essentially those born, for whatever reason, without the ability to practice Islam - for while this verse seems to mention the deaf and the dumb, it seems that the message is geared towards indicating all those who for any reason are physically, perhaps mentally, disabled in a way that prevents them from grasping and practicing the wisdom of Islam - that these people are fated to hell because of this physical flaw alone? The implication seems to be then that we are all decided, either heaven or hell, when we are born. That no act of free will can change this. Or at least it implies that some are created and live a life for no other purpose than to feed the fire. Surely this cannot be the will of a loving God. I harbor no assumptions. Is there another understanding of this verse? If this life is a test, how can one pass who has been designed to fail? If we are to be unattached from others, if only Allah shall matter to one in life, then how can one person pay for the sins or perhaps simply the genetic flaws, of another? I do not believe in contradictions. Namaste, Mahasvapna |
| Posted by Muslimah - 04-08-2006, 07:10 PM |
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And Faris I m so surprised, no I wont say surprised, that there are Muslims who think this way. Sobhan Allah. May Allah Keep us on the correct path ameen |
| Posted by Muslimah - 04-08-2006, 07:08 PM |
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Bismillah Quote:Peace..... Salam Shamms I think u misinterpreted Faris words not sure why, I dont believe Faris meant that the verses of Quran were not clear enough. First off, what is quoted here is not the verse but rather translation of the meaning. Faris putting between brackets the words Christians or jews is not adding to the verse he is trying to explain what shirk is. Surely I m not talking on behalf of Faris, but as he is a Muslim brother, I do give myself permission to explain here. Mahasvapna, just to clarify those who do good deeds but not on the correct path of Allah, receive their reward in this world. As u can clearly see, someone like mother Teresa, she is grandaized and her memory is maitained by people. Mind u Faris is not judging out of his own opinion, he is quoting the Quran. We dont dare to judge no one or even commend our own deeds. We only can always invoke upon Allah To accet our deeds. But never to praise our own or others deeds because no one can actually know the true intention behind any deed. Unless the intention is purely to Allah, the fruit is lost. For instance, one of the advantages for a Muslim after death, when he/she is not allowed to do good deeds no more, is that the person carries out what is called sadaqa jariay which translates as current charity. As for example building a masjed for people to pray, printing Quran for people to read and the like. Each time a person prays in this masjed or reads in this quran the deseased receives a reward. Again the deed must be strictly to please Allah and not be under no circumstances carrying a bit of the desire to show off, brag or be praised by people. Once this feeling (O how people think of me) entered into the heart, the deeds are somehow suspicious till one clears the heart. |
| Posted by Faris_Mee - 04-08-2006, 10:06 AM |
Quote:So, good deeds must not only benefit mankind in a great way - they must be in the name of Allah as well? Hello Mahasvapna. May Allah guide the one who is sincerely seeking Him. Before we begin might I remind you of something you said elsewhere; <b> <i> 'I believe that the greatest good one can do is to simply align one's own will with the will of God. '</i> </b> So with that in mind, I attempt to answer your questions. <b> <i>So, good deeds must not only benefit mankind in a great way - they must be in the name of Allah as well? </i> </b> Look closely at the sentence. First you said <i>"So, good deeds must not only benefit mankind in a great way"</i> then "<i>they must be in the name of Allah as well?"</i> This is called shirk. Polytheism. Making partners with God. Creating other gods. In this case - 'mankind'. I think you should read over again what Allah has said in the Qur'an. The answer is plain. You must be a believer first and foremost. How else can anything you do be dedicated to Him if you do not believe in accordance with what He has revealed? Throughout the Qur'an Allah (Most Gracious, Most Merciful) clearly reminds you and me; <b>To Him you shall all return. Allah's promise is true. He is the One Who originates the process of Creation and repeats it (will bring it back to life) so that He may justly reward those who believed in Him and did righteous deeds. As for those who disbelieved, they shall have boiling fluids to drink and shall undergo a painful punishment because they rejected the truth.</b> 10.4 Belief comes first - then good deeds. Note clearly in the above verse that disbelief is not associated with good deeds. Whereas belief is. <b> <i> The actions of those such as the nun Teresa have a positive and lasting impact on humanity. Her actions have made the world a better place in a small way. </i> </b> The address in post # 1 clearly reminds us that we are here for one purpose only. To worship the God of Creation. Not false gods. Be they Shiva, Jesus, money, humanity, pride etc. God comes first - then good deeds. So what she has done will become like dust on the Day of Judgement. <b> <i> If the world is made better by-and-by, then in time people will have TIME and PEACE to consider things like which religion they want to follow. </i> </b> There is no time. Once your dead that's it. You are retired to the grave. And the more wealth and comfort man has the further he turns away from God. Only when we 'need Him' do we acknowledge Him; <b>When We show mercy to mankind after some calamity had afflicted them, they begin to plot against Our revelations! Tell them: "Allah is more swift in plotting than you; indeed Our angels are recording all the plots you make." Jonah 10.21</b> He is the One Who enables you to travel through the land and by the sea; until when you are on board a ship, as the ship sails with a favorable wind and they feel happy about it; but when there comes a stormy wind and the waves reach them from all sides and they think they are being overwhelmed: then they pray to Allah with their sincere devotion, saying, "If You deliver us from this, we shall become your true thankful devotees!" 10.22 But when the pressure is off we turn away, making up all sorts of fanciful ideas about God; <b>Yet, when He does deliver them, behold! The same people become unjustly rebellious in the land. O mankind! Your rebellion is against your own souls - (you may enjoy) the transitory pleasure of this world - in the end you have to return to Us, then We shall inform you of what you have done. </b> 10.23 <b><i> Is he not the only eternal part which will see those deeds come to their fruition? I hate to tell you this, but Teresa's work already bore fruit, and continues to do so today. How do you explain this? According the Christians (catholics specifically) this is so BECAUSE she devoted herself to Christ and the Christian God. </i></b> What is the fruitition? To believe that God ate and went to the toilet? This is what she is calling to. Surely even you have passed this falacy? Her works are a means to an end. And that is to call people to believe that Jesus is God or part thereof. And this is calling people to the fire. She has done them no favor. <b><i>Also, you do not know what her heart was, you have only words .</i></b> She has said by her words "Jesus is My GOD". And she has trod this path all her life. Her deeds as we all know were to call people away from the one true God. And what can be worse than this? To call people to the hellfire. We can only judge by what we see and by the revalations we are given. <b> Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. </b> 5.72 <b> <i>Is it not possible that she saw Jesus as one with God, or as an Aspect of God? </i></b> This is still called shirk. Polytheism. Making partners with God. Creating other Gods. <b>As a result most of them who believe in Allah also commit shirk.</b> 12.106 <b> <i>I know many christians who believe this, and they are usually more experienced and older, more devotional. How do you know that Teresa did not ultimately believe in only one God, and devoted herself to his service selflessly as she did? </i> </b> And again, <b>As a result most of them who believe in Allah also commit shirk.</b> 12.106 Surely I would be numbered among the losers if I were to deny what my Lord has revealed. But if these people are sincere surely they will act upon the reminder; <b>Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.</b> Matt 7:7-8 So what are they seeking? What are they asking for? <b>If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Submission to the Creator) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).</b> 3.86 Are they sincerely asking for forgiveness of their sins from the One True God? <b>...Allah chooses for His service whom He wills, and guides to His Way only those who turn to Him in repentance.</b> 42.13 And so then the guidance is thus; <b>Whomever Allah wills to guide, He opens his chest to Islam...</b> But for those who are revolted at acknowledging a greater power than themselves exists, that there truly is a God and one must surrender to Him and that He is closer to you than your jugular vein; <b>...and whomever He intends to confound, He makes his chest narrow and squeezes so tight that, at the very idea of Islam, he feel as if his soul is going to climb up towards the sky. That is how Allah places a blight on those who do not believe, whereas in fact this way (Al-Islam) is the Right Way of your Rabb and We have spelled out Our revelations very clearly for the people who use their common sense.</b> 6.125-6 <b>O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). Be not as those who say, We hear, and they hear not. Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense. Had Allah Known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse.</b> 8.20-3 <b> <i>Words are a poor reason to judge. Actions, personal achievement, the way in which one relates to and interacts with people. To judge on something as flexible and uncertain as words - this is surely a mistake. </i> </b> I assume you mean her words. We must judge by what God has revealed. Man's whims are no sound foundation to judge by. Only God has the right to judge and we must act in accordance with His instructions. We are given tongues to express our feelings. Are you saying she lied? Her actions bore out what she felt. And dedicating one's life to 'another god' is the one unforgivable sin. <b>Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie.</b> 4.48 <b> <i>Judge not, lest ye be judged - is there a parallel of this saying in Islam? I am not arguing with you, i'm only trying to offer the chance to widen your perspective a bit. Only Allah can know the true nature of a person's heart and soul. It is not for any mortal cast judgement on another </i> </b> <b>Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, Lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers.</b> 3.31-2 <b> <i> - for in the end, their actions may have been the will of Allah to begin with. </i> </b> <b>Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. But monasticism they invented. We ordained it not for them. Only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers.</b> 57.27 And if you say, look! She is a believer. Then my reply is 'Nay! She loved Jesus only. Jesus is my God, Jesus is my Spouse, Jesus is my Life, Jesus is my only Love, Jesus is my All in All; Jesus is my Everything." - Mother Teresa <b>Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, Lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers.</b> 3.31-2 |
| Posted by Mahasvapna - 04-07-2006, 08:14 PM |
Quote:Peace..... So, good deeds must not only benefit mankind in a great way - they must be in the name of Allah as well? I realize this a message to muslims but... The actions of those such as the nun Teresa have a positive and lasting impact on humanity. Her actions have made the world a better place in a small way. If the world is made better by-and-by, then in time people will have TIME and PEACE to consider things like which religion they want to follow. In the end, is not every action in the service of Allah? Is he not the only eternal part which will see those deeds come to their fruition? I hate to tell you this, but Teresa's work already bore fruit, and continues to do so today. How do you explain this? According the Christians (catholics specifically) this is so BECAUSE she devoted herself to Christ and the Christian God. Also, you do not know what her heart was, you have only words. Is it not possible that she saw Jesus as one with God, or as an Aspect of God? I know many christians who believe this, and they are usually more experienced and older, more devotional. How do you know that Teresa did not ultimately believe in only one God, and devoted herself to his service selflessly as she did? Words are a poor reason to judge. Actions, personal achievement, the way in which one relates to and interacts with people. To judge on something as flexible and uncertain as words - this is surely a mistake. Even the verses of your qu'ran have been interpreted differently by different people - obviously words are not so reliable as to the true nature of a thing. Judge not, lest ye be judged - is there a parallel of this saying in Islam? I am not arguing with you, i'm only trying to offer the chance to widen your perspective a bit. Only Allah can know the true nature of a person's heart and soul. It is not for any mortal cast judgement on another - for in the end, their actions may have been the will of Allah to begin with. Namaste Mahasvapna |
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